Resource SS Doubles OU Viability Rankings v.2

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emma

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DPL Champion
I have been eliminated from SCL, so here are my VR changes. My personal VR can be found here. I'm also working on our SCL team dump, where I will go in detail about a lot of these Pokemon, especially the sets we popularized. The VR should definitely be updated soon with SCL ending and there being a ton of nominations. I suppose waiting until DWCoP ends wouldn't be the worst, though.

Rises


Landorus: Tier 3 -> Tier 1
Agree with the other nominations fully. This was the most restrictive Pokemon while building during my SCL experience, and I would definitely include it on any metagame survey the council puts out either when SCL or DWCoP ends. It's extremely powerful, fast, and even has a lot of cool options for its last moveslot -- Psychic is really nice for beating opposing Landorus and also 2HKOs Amoonguss through Sitrus Berry, Focus Blast hits Porygon2, Kyurem-Black, and Celesteela, Substitute creates free turns and punishes the opposition for trying to dance around it, while even Stealth Rock is viable. This was the second most popular Pokemon during the SCL regular season and forced Pokemon such as Celesteela and Zapdos to rise to try to check it. This should be an easy agree.


Celesteela: Tier 4 -> Tier 2
Agree. Meteor Beam Celesteela puts on immense offensive pressure with its dual STABs as well as Meteor Beam to hit would be checks like Zapdos, Volcanion, and Incineroar. Even if the surprise factor is gone, it's really easy to stack Special Attack raises with Meteor Beam and Beast Boost and eventually win the game. It's also one of the few things that switches into Landorus, although it must watch out for Focus Blast, which is extremely important. This is the best Steel-type in the metagame. 12th in overall SCL regular season usage, including an amazing 7/10 uses in Week 7. Also, don't run the Leech Seed set, it sucks.


Mew: Tier 3 -> Tier 2
I agree. Mew's versatility and reliable support prowess is very good. Fake Out, Tailwind, and Stealth Rock have always been great, but stax and Lunar. introduced us to the amazing Snarl + Will-o-Wisp set that can almost win games on its own at some points. It can do even more, including Coaching, Demon Mew, and even offensive sets with Expert Belt and Tailwind. It being one of the most reliable Tailwind setters as well as the new Snarl + Will-o-Wisp set has pushed it to Tier 2. Also sitting at 7th in usage for the SCL regular season.


Naganadel: Tier 3 -> Tier 2
Agree. Z Strats and I spammed this more than anyone, but I really believe it should be Tier 2. Dragon / Poison / Fire coverage is extremely solid, and hits like a truck when running Modest, which even lets it OHKO Metagross with Fire Blast. It's the fastest Tailwind setter bar Whimsicott and offers key resistances to Fire, Water, Grass, and Fighting. It checks a lot of boxes while building and matches up nicely to a lot of common Pokemon (Rillaboom, Landorus, Urshifu-R, Tapu Fini, Rain etc.) and is the premier Tailwind setter for offensive teams, but still works on balance and even Semiroom. I would definitely give this a try if you haven't already.


Zapdos: Tier 3 -> Tier 2
Agree. Another Platoon special, Zapdos is also underutilized. Great Tailwind setter (one of something like 3.5 viable ones), one of the few switch-ins to Landorus, matches up well into Urshifu-R, Rillaboom, Tapu Fini, and more, and hits very hard with Magnet set. It has some nice options for the last move as well, including Whirlwind, Toxic, Volt Switch, and Protect. Synergizes well with Landorus, Urshifu-R, and Nihilego as well. Hurricane is great, just hit. I wouldn't hate it staying in Tier 3, but Tier 2 is better.


Nihilego: Tier 4 -> Tier 3
Nihilego moment. This is a more recent trend, but I think it's definitely a strong one. Its 103 Base Speed is huge, outpacing the likes of Landorus, Urshifu-R, and two of the three most common Tailwind setters. Landorus' rise has seen a big decrease in Zygarde usage, while an increase in Zapdos which is a huge plus. Even Celestela gets 2HKOd by Meteor Beam into Power Gem while never OHKOing back, even at +1. Nihilego also matches up well into Landorus structures, and especially those which feature Zapdos as the Tailwind setter. It's also great into Rillaboom, Tapu Fini, Incineroar, Volcanion, Kyurem-B and more. In case you haven't noticed, I really think Poison is a strong offensive typing, especially when you combine it with something strong like Landorus, Naganadel, and Nihilego do.


Kyurem & Alola NInetales: UR -> Tier 4
Hail is pretty good. Ice is a pretty clickable offensive typing, and the playstyle has tools to play around Diancie / Metagross / Trick Room. We can even see in the SCL Replay that YoBuddy has Celesteela under Trick Room but it doesn't matter because he makes minimal progress due to Aurora Veil.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8doublesou-584448
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8doublesou-1423306761-iv0gtjbfhbnaga5ldbp47ijm6l6caobpw


Whimsicott: UR -> Tier 4
Prankster Tailwind / Encore / Fake Tiers is really good, especially with great beneficiaries such as Landorus and Naganadel. Great into all other offense besides Psychic Spam. Rillaboom is nowhere near mandatory so switching up your Grass-type is fine. Even after the disastrous start where Tailwind and Fake Tears do nothing, Whimsicott still wins the game with Prankster Encore.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8doublesou-590454
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8doublesou-590466

For the past new nominations, we also have more testing replays against other SCL players, but I'll have to see if I'm allowed to share them. I'm also sure other players tested this during the season and have winning replays.

There are some other things I'd rank that other people used, but I don't feel like collecting replays so if other people want to do them please feel free.

Drops


Rillaboom: Tier 1 -> Tier 2
Do not think this has the splashability it had earlier in the generation, nor is it basically mandatory. Amoonguss and even Tsareena are both great options for Grass-types (Amoonguss especially was hardly viable during OSDT metagame, which also had Kartana which went excellently with Rillaboom), while I don't even think using one is needed at all. Both us and Nails + umbry only ran 3/9 Rillaboom in SCL for example. All its tools are still worthwile, but I wouldn't place it in the same tier as Landorus or Kyurem-B anymore. Rillaboom in Tier 1 would be okay, but Tier 2 is better.


Dragapult: Tier 2 -> Tier 4
Agree. This Pokemon is actually terrible. I have one Dragapult team in my builder that I never actually got around to testing because it had a Dragapult on it. If you want a fast Dragon-type, use Naganadel which also sets Tailwind and hits way harder. Dragapult hates Incineroar, Porygon2, Tapu Fini, and Diancie all being a lot better than they were during OSDT (and Kartana being banned as well as offense being downgraded), as well as most Rillaboom running Knock Off. Choice Specs Shadow Ball doesn't even OHKO Mew which is just embarrassing. This was actually brought eleven times in SCL, but performed poorly with a 36.36% win rate. Besides the game is won on team preview because Frania brought a team from last year's DWCoP, I can't remember it doing anything noticeable.


Genesect: Tier 2 -> Tier 3
Genesect is an unfortunate casualty of Landorus' rise, as the Landorus soft checks in Celesteela and Zapdos also match up well against Genesect. The rest of the OSDT -> SCL metagame shift isn't particularly kind either. This Pokemon was also used eleven times, but performed even worse with an unfathomable win rate of 18.18%, which is the lowest beside 0%. It saw 2 uses in Week 1, 2 in Week 2, 3 in Week 3, 2 in Week 4, and then a whopping 2 the reason of the entire regular season. It was able to do something productive once this season (Mishimono vs. Qwello Lee, Week 2), and it was its only win besides a mirror match.


Heatran: Tier 2 -> Tier 3
Easily the worst of the three main Fire-type Pokemon. Incineroar's support ability is unmatched, Volcanion thrives on Semiroom, which leaves Heatran seeing most of its usage on more offensively-oriented structures. 13 uses compared to Incineroar's 33 and Volcanion's 21.


Zeraora: Tier 2 -> Tier 3
Zeraora is often too passive for my tastes. There are lots of scenarios where clicking Plasma Fists, Taunt / Coaching, and Knock Off / Coaching are all useless and lose progress. It wants all four of those moves but can only fit three. Its biggest Coaching target (Shift Gear Genesect) is also not doing so hot. I do not believe offensive Zeraora was used once. Also doesn't appreciate the best Pokemon in the metagame resisting Electric. I wouldn't hate Zeraora in Tier 2 since a lot of people seem to like it, but I would make it Tier 3.


Zygarde: Tier 2 -> Tier 3
Agree. 14 uses, 4 wins, with one of them being a mirror match. 4 uses in Week 1, 3 in Week 2, 2 in Week 3, 5 the rest of the regular season. Imagine using Zygarde when you can use the two other best Pokemon in the format (Landorus is a much better Ground-type while Kyurem-B is a much better Dragon Dancer). It's also not a fan of Porygon2's revenge. This might actually see a come back with Nihilego, Zapdos, and Celesteela all being good right now, but it's definitely Tier 3 for now.


Tier 5 -> Unranked
All these Pokemon saw minimal to zero SCL usage and do not deserve to be ranked.

I would not be too opposed to Incineroar rising to Tier 1, but I do not want to nominate it myself. Tapu Fini is low Tier 2.
 
I know i'm late and basically just here to parrot Emma and Gma but I figured i'd throw my hat in the ring anyways. (And my option
doesn't matter that much bc I didn't play in scl majors or wcup but I don't care.)
Rises




Landorus: Tier 3 -> Tier 1
Agree. This thing is stupid strong with Sheer Force Lo Earth Power and Sludge Bomb is able to chunk anything that resits it besides Steela. Mega oppressive in builder without it Dia would be disgusting however so I don't really know if it should be banned. It feasts on the new up rise of semi room and with Av Kyube falling in usage in favor of Dd Kyube really nothing can take its attacks super well outside of p2 and Steela and if it's running Focus Blast it can even chunk those if not tier 1 then at least tier 2 because tier 3 is a crime.




Celesteela: Tier 4 -> Tier 2
Agree. Only on Meteor Beam though Leach Seed is ass with the rise of Semi room (Therefore Dia and Steamy as well) Dd Kyube and Incin with Ursh and Rilla not falling. Its dual stabs hit everything stupid hard and if you Mbeam a Incin or Steamy you basicly get a double spa boost allowing you to reek havoc on the opposing team.




Mew: Tier 3 -> Tier 2
Agree. This things utility is stupid strong after the best tw setter in Kart got banned this things back on top Coaching sets are supper good to help push broken attackers such as Ursh, Zyg, Kyub, Sg Gene, and even Demon Cress if your feeling it. Offensive mew is also super awesome in psychic terrain as a mini fast Necro with Tw.




Naganadel: Tier 3 -> Tier 2
Agree. 2nd best Tw setter in the tier only behind Mew a bit frail but Daul stabs hit everything super hard especially with Kart the main steel type being banned. Dd Kyube basically runs Haban only for this and also for Pult but is ass so it doesn't matter. As well as Tran falling in usage who completely blocked all of Flame, Sludge and Draco.





Zapdos: Tier 3 -> Tier 2
Disagree. This is ass outside of Kart meta only good on rain and rain isn't that good right now imo. Just bad Mew if Tw bot and bad Naga if offensive Tw off of Rain. On rain is bad Torn however having Lo Thunder is decent enough too keep me from putting it down in tier 4 so low tier 3 it is.




Nihilego: Tier 4 -> Tier 3
Agree. With Kart banned Nihi comes roaring back reminding everyone how big of a threat is especially with Av Kyube's dropping a shit ton of Spdef to live Mbeam and Incin and Steamy coming back with Rilla staying stupid strong. Urshifu's rise is ass for it however it loves Zyg starting to fall of hard you also out speed and ohko Lando-I which is amazing 90% of the time when it hits jokes aside this thing is crazy.







Kyurem & Alola NInetales: UR -> Tier 4
Agree. Hail is epic ngl. Specs Kyruem can click Blizzard into everything for big chunks especially with Av Kyube on the down low and running less Spedf as of late. A Tails can do some cool stuff with Encore out side of that is just a Hail/Aurora Vial bot however even that isn't bad ngl.




Whimsicott: UR -> Tier 4
Disagree. Prankster Tw and Fake Tears is nice and encore can be annoying however throwing away a slot just for that is kinda eh. As well as being hard to slot in over other high value grasses such as Amoong, Tsar, and Rilla. For example Rilla really fricks up Psypsam however Whim is just dead weight against it only being good for tw. So tier 5 at best imo.


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Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: Tier 2 -> Tier 1
Big bad of Dou themselves with Kart gone Incin's usage skyrocketing and Dd Kyube everywhere its only natural for this offensive behemoth to rise to the occasion as the premiere offensive threat of Dou. Personally I find my self liking Lo more than band the ability to switch moves and use Detect/Protect is just to good to pass up combined with Coaching Mew and it's damage output is still stupid strong as well as not locking its self in to a move making it so Steamy can't switch in on Surging Strikes without fearing boosted Cc. Scarf can soft check Lando-I the same goes for Band as well if Jet.


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Metagross: Tier 2 -> Tier 3
Not the defensive steel we deserve but the defensive steel type we need able to live Lando-I with Shuca or Av+Spedf however it does require Ice Punch to ko back however it feasts on the rise in Kyube and Diance. Despite Incins popularity being an annoyance at first a lot of these big cats have stopped running boots meaning Meta's rocks are very good against it as well as Steamy who has also started dropping boots sometimes and Rage Powder Volc is another big target for its Sneaky Pebbles. It also revels in the fact that Heatran is falling off meaning it doesn't need to run Occa as often for Tran. Zygarde's falling usage is also a huge blessing as it was one of its major problems.
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 76 SpD Assault Vest Metagross: 307-361 (84.3 - 99.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 124 SpD Shuca Berry Metagross: 218-257 (59.8 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Metagross Steel Roller vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 262-309 (81.8 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
136+ Atk Metagross Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 376-444 (117.5 - 138.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO


1637346278550.png

Torkoal: Tier 5 -> Tier 4/Tier 3
The infamous sun Tortoise them selves but really Koal in tier 5 is a crime its on a sample for gods sake the hard room archetype is back to being half decent with Meta's being forced into Shuca by Lando-I Tran and Zyg no where to be seen most Steela's doping Wide Guard but honestly even if this thing is the next best thing since gen 6 Lando-T I don't want it in the same tier as Ttar it got a usage in Scl unlike most clowns in tier 5 and honestly I hate tier 5 in general please nuke it.


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Incineroar: Tier 2 -> Tier 1
Broken mon back at it again finnaly shook of the Sm blues and has come to wreak havoc as the main counter to Dd Kyube and pretty much made Zyg and Tran irreverent all on its own good job fiery furry wrestler. (Would write more but i'm tired sorry)


Drops

1637346332119.png


Lando-T: Teir 4 -> Tier 5/Ur
Agree. With Lando-I on the rise using this prevents you from using a better mon Lmao. With Incin going back to its Sm god state the main reason that you would use it for Tran and Zyg who are both falling off hard.





Dragapult: Tier 2 -> Tier 4
Agree. I cant really add anything that others haven't already said but this mon is just ass.




Heatran: Tier 2 -> Tier 3
Agree. Worst out of the 4 fires incin's going crazy, Volcs doing decent still, and Steamy is loving the new semiroom bump. And Tran still thinking about the good ol day's with Kart.




Zeraora: Tier 2 -> Tier 3
Agree. Doesn't make enough progress has 4mss Mew is for better Fo plus Coaching imo. Sorry for short response there's just not much to say.




Zygarde: Tier 2 -> Tier 3
Agree. Incin and Kyube both destroy you Mb Dia is super common hails rise is bad for you Tran falling sucks as its one of your main targets Naga f's you Dd just can't hack it anymore and Cb is decent but then your just a bad Lando-I.




Tier 5 -> Unranked
Agree. Bad Mons bad tier #Nuke Tier 5
 
:landorus: Tier 3 -> Tier 1
Lando-i took kartanas place as the best mon in the metagame. This mon can do it all with its versatile moveset. I dont think it needs a ban so we need to do our best to adapt to it. If it becomes a problem after invitationals then i suggest giving it a suspect test.

:necrozma: Tier 3 -> Tier 2
Necrozma can run many different sets and they all excel depending on team compositions. The more popular sets are power herb/meteor beam and weakness policy paired with fling zeraora but it also has an underused set of photon geyser/earth power/ trick room/ protect with sitrus berry/safety googles. Necrozma can always live 2 attacks thanks to its bulk and ability and thats enough to support the team so i think it deserves tier 2

:mew: Tier 3 -> Tier 2
Before SCL, most mews ran the typical fake out/twind/hazards/pollen puff set but during SCL, stax and lunar popularized the wisp/snarl/roost/pollenpuff set and its been a nuisance to many teams. Mew is constantly evolving in the metagame so i believe TIer 2 is the best placement for it.

:araquanid: Tier UR -> Tier 5
Sticky webs and wide guard make it a valuable support mon. It also deals massive damage with liquidation and it can't be burned thanks to its ability. Can also deal with diancie under trickroom.

:kyurem: :ninetales-alola: UR -> Tier 5
these 2 mons are great together and can beat teams on their own. I havent been impressed with the teams that have been built with them though. At most, these mons are niche so giving them a tier 5 placement sounds reasonable.

:abomasnow: UR -> Tier 5
This mon is underrated af. Once trickroom is set is up, it can handle most of the metagame thanks to its amazing coverage(Blizzard/Energy Ball/Earth Power). Unfortunately, it has to run focus sash as its item to prolong its presence in the battle but if you can position it correcty, its gg for the opponent since most of the metagame is weak to ice types.

:celesteela: Tier 4 -> Tier 3
The power herb set with meteor beam is legit and having air slash and flash cannon in its movepool makes this mon a demon. It can clean games on its own but its not hard to deal with it once its support mons are gone. Dont use the heavy slam/leech seed set. That moverset is trash in the current meta.

:naganadel: Tier 3 -> Tier 2
This mon is amazing. Its life orb set with sludge bomb/draco meteor/flamethrower or fire blast/twind can only be kept under control from a few teams. Naga puts pressure on rilla, fini, kyube, and many other mons so you have to play carefully around it. I've been experiementing with an AV set of sludge bomb/draco meteor/uturn/flamethrower and it still puts in work.

:incineroar: Tier 2 -> Tier 1
Inci is back in its prime. Pinch berries are gone but its fulfilling the same job it did in the sm metagame. Fake out the opponent, retreat with its new utility move(parting shot), knock off opponents items, and use flare blitz to kill mons weak to fire. Inci can run sitrus berry/safety goggles/heavy duty boots/etc depending on the team its used on.
 
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:latias: UR -> Tier 5
Latias is a great check to Pokemon like Landorus, Zygarde, and Urshifu, outspeeding them all and able to OHKO the first two with Ice Beam and the last with Psychic. Latias also outspeeds Nihilego (and 2HKOs with Psychic), which is an advantage she has over fellow Tailwind setter Zapdos. Naganadel may be an even faster Dragon-type Tailwind setter, but Latias is a good alternative if you want something bulkier. Draco Meteor covers Kyurem and hits a lot of other Mons for neutral damage. Other moves worth mentioning include Icy Wind, Mystical Fire, and Heal Pulse. Latias has quite a few bad matchups, but I think the good matchups she has warrants a place on the VR.
 

Yoda2798

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Doubles Leader
Time for an overdue VR update! Note that emma is longer part of the VR council meaning we have an even number of voters, in the case of a tie the Pokemon remains in its original tier.

Landorus-I: Tier 3 →Tier 1
Actuarily: Tier 2, can be really oppressive but just has such a bad matchup into a few common Pokémon like P2, Kyu-b, Rillaboom, etc, and it folds vs speed control.

Nido-Rus: Tier 2, probably dropping to 3 by the next VR shift. Very strong but somewhat frail glass cannon. Can be oppressive at cleaning endgame and good at chunking teams early on, but suffers a ton when it doesn’t have momentum, especially against stuff like TR. The spread of bulky TR setters (cresselia, p2, mew) makes it harder to justify.

Paraplegic: Tier 2, Very potent offensive threat and has to be respected both in the builder and on the field, but it has enough keeping it in check where it doesn’t feel tier 1 worthy.

SMB: Tier 3, nothing has changed for it, if anything it’s closer to tier 4. I’ve seen some sets on mons that are supposed to check lando that doesn’t even check it (see the next nom), greedy sets that make lando seem better than what it really is. It’s pretty easy to take advantage of it, both in the teambuilder and in the actual game. I don’t really use this mon, I think it’s pretty irrelevant on the tier, and the teams I’ve seen that feature it, 90% of the times using a different mon would make its team more solid.

umbry: 2. One of the top metagame threats, very splashable and 2hkos almost everything on the tier. Has good upsides depending on the 4th moveslot but struggles a lot getting into the right position without being punished. Recent meta adaptations have also been targeting landorus into making it more of a liability, we’re seeing more fast paced teams as well as balanced compositions running more checks like cresselia, celesteela, shuca volcanion etc.

Yoda2798: Tier 2. Strong and requires little in the way of support, but as mentioned above has some notable bad matchups and teams are more prepared for it now.

Mew: Tier 3 →Tier 2
Actuarily: Tier 2, has so many good sets, is the most reliable TW setter, and if you guess the wrong set it can get you in a really bad position.

Nido-Rus: Tier 2, can often fill very specific niches in a team with its extremely wide movepool, along with just generally being very reliable with its bulk and speed tier. Spread of the snarl/wisp set and cosmic power set means there’s even more to keep in mind when playing against it.

Paraplegic: Tier 2, stupidly versatile and has so many good sets that allow it to do so much so well. Can be everything ranging from potent wincon to one of the best speed control options in the tier to something like jail mew can that just fuck you up if you happen to accidentally give it the opening. Other options like pollen puff, hazards, and a speedy fake out give it plenty to do and this mon never really seems like dead weight, always accomplishes its job and does so well.

SMB: Mew has been a Tier 2 mon for a while yeah, if i had to vote only on the snarl wow set which is the reason why it was nominated, I’d say tier 4 or 5 tho. Greedy set that doesn’t really accomplish anything and doesn’t make it check what it should check.
Anyway, easily the best tailwind setter on the tier and one of the best tr setters. It makes it pretty easy to control the field with its combination of solid speed control and coverage moves.

umbry: 2. Offers great flexibility as a support mon on every team composition it fits in, also cosmic power is very much a thing and it can easily become an unkillable demon if you lazily guess the wrong set.

Yoda2798: Tier 2. Easily the best Tailwind setter, very versatile kit lets it adapt to fit on a variety of teams.

Zapdos: Tier 3 →Tier 2
Actuarily: Tier 3. Really good on rain, and still solid as a TW + pivot mon.

Nido-Rus: Tier 3, solid offensive option and TW setter on rain. Tier 4 or possibly 5 mon when outside rain.

Paraplegic Tier 3, others covered this well but zapdos only really truly shows its worth on rain and outside of that its mediocre as all heck.

SMB: I think we already voted on this the last time, and again nothing has changed for it. Tier 4, I find zapdos hard to justify on any team except rain, pretty worthless outside of clicking tailwind, and for that there are better options (and it’s not like tw is that good atm).

umbry: 3. Solid tailwind setter, magnet calcs make it usable on a few more non-rain teams. Doesn’t really do much else and it can often become a target or be forced out in a lot of common matchups, also struggles into trickroom if you’re not running whirlwind.

Yoda2798: Tier 3. Good on rain, and can work as a Tailwind setter outside of that, but Mew is way better at doing that. Kartana existing was the sole reason Zapdos became a premier TW option, without it Zap’s pretty mediocre.

Naganadel: Tier 3 →Tier 2
Actuarily: Tier 2. Is a staple on offense, and it’s ability to outspeed and ohko so much of the tier makes it 2. Absolutely folds to TR though.

Nido-Rus: Tier 2, very solid threat on offense. Same problem as lando-I of being a glass cannon that hates TR, but naga trades reliable spammable ground move for better defensive typing, better coverage, great utility (tailwind), and reliable draco nuke.

Paraplegic: Tier 3, the conundrum of protect or tailwind really holds it back to me because it needs fire coverage which only leaves the one slot and on one hand, tailwind is like the main reason to use it, but on the other without protect sometimes it feels like you have to jump through so many hoops to properly position this mon in a good spot. This leaves it feeling like it has an incomplete kit either way to me and as such I don’t view it on par with the tier 2 mons.

SMB: Tier 3, too frail and fails to get ohkos on things that it should straight beat just to get ohkoed back (hh av rillaboom or av kyub for example, just naming 2 of the most popular mons on the tier). 4mss, it wants both protect and 3 attacks, and not being able to run both leaves it either exposed to too many stuff or walled by any steel type.

umbry: 2. Best tailwind setter for offensive teams, great speed tier and offensive typing, modest LO threatens a very good portion of the metagame and can ve hard to stop once it snowballs. It’s super fragile though and most of the time you’re not allowed to run protect unless you’re dropping tailwind because you can’t really miss on fire coverage.

Yoda2798: Tier 2. Summed up well by the others. I don’t feel 100% about this because of its drawbacks, but the positives are strong enough for me to see it closer to 2 than 3.

Genesect: Tier 2 →Tier 3
Actuarily: Tier 2. Shift gear is very scary, and Scarf/AV are still really good on the right compositions as they can just pick apart everything but a handful of mons.

Nido-Rus: Tier 2, despite the recent Genesect slander I still hold that it’s a solid mixed threat and pivot right now. Amazing movepool, solid typing, decent bulk. Shift gear is a tier 3 set, scarf is 2.5, and bulky AV is tier 2.

Paraplegic: Tier 3, almost tempted to vote tier 4 on principle. This pokemon is a pretty potent offensive threat, yes. However, it is a bad steel type. In a tier where we rely on steels to compress roles defensively to the degree that we do, I maintain that genesect eats up that slot in a way that just leaves you too weak to things that you want your steels to be sturdy against. The only place where it feels reasonable to slot in genesect on a team over something like gross or celes is hard offense, and even then you can use either of the other two on offenses just fine so I don’t think genesect’s current presence or niche is worthy of tier 2, or even tier 3 really in all honesty.

SMB: Tier 3; shift gear is not as threatening as before, scarf doesn’t want to be locked on anything and relies on “surprise factor” to kill anything, av is its best set but I don’t think it is good enough for tier 2

umbry: 3. Harder to justify now that steel types have become more valuable, scarf is an ok speed control option and often finds good matchups into offense but is hardly ever more than a sack vs trickroom teams. Shift gear is no more than a fish now that kart is gone and it’s not something I’d really consider as it rarely finds playable matchups in current meta.

Yoda2798: Tier 3. Difficult to fit on teams due to other Steel-types being strong. It’s definitely not terrible or anything, but Tier 2 feels a tad high for where it is currently.

Incineroar: Tier 2 →Tier 1
Actuarily: Tier 2. There’s just so many Pokémon that can exploit Incineroar, it’s a testament to how good it is at what it does that it’s still Tier 2 despite this.

Nido-Rus: Tier 1.5? Definitely very solid right now, but i hesitate to put it at the top since it implies that incin is significantly above tier 2 mons. Tier 1 should be fine, but with the added note that tier 1 as it is now is only slightly better than tier 2, unlike precious gens.

Paraplegic: Tier 1, I’ve been a believer that incin is one of the best mons in the tier throughout ct, this just feels like validation more so than anything!

SMB: I was one of the few that thought this was tier 1 on the meta where kartana was around so yeah now there are even more reasons…

umbry: 1. Fake out and intimidate offer so much to your team and it’s also so easy to fit. Great defensive typing, parting shot is able to kill all the initiative for your opponent and swing the momentum back to your side, knock off is always a great move. Also one of the best kyurem and rillaboom checks.

Yoda2798: Tier 1. Incredibly splashable, great utility for basically any team. Being one of the best Kyurem-B checks is a big plus.

Celesteela: Tier 4 →Tier 2
Actuarily: Tier 3. It can be difficult for some teams to hit, but its very awkward speed tier means it has to trade so much bulk to be as fast as it wants. If it uses meteor beam at the wrong time suddenly a lot of stuff beat it. Also wishes it could run both WG and protect.

Nido-Rus: Tier 2 for now, possibly tier 3 later on. Has an awkward speed tier and sometimes has a hard time setting up, but poses an incredible threat with its combination of strong snowballing potential and a defensive typing that invalidates common pokemon.

Paraplegic: Tier 2, agree with everyone who said they think it should be there right now.

SMB: Tier 3, okish bulky strong attacker with snowballing potential. Although, needs a lot of support to work properly, struggles a lot against fire types once power herb is used and has 4mss. Many reasons to not reach tier 2.

umbry: 2. Very easy to snowball especially with redirection or intimidate support, meteor beam+beast boost is amazing while still serving its purpose as a steel type. Checks so many common threats like diancie and lando-I, also wide guard/flamethrower are nice niche options to run on specific teams.

Yoda2798: Tier 2. Also not 100% on this one, in particular because of the awkward Speed on teams without Trick Room and the ability to play around Power Herb (either baiting it then using Incineroar/Volcanion, or removing it with something like Knock Off Rillaboom). Its typing is so nice though, doing well into both Landorus-I and Diancie specifically puts it in such a great place. The option of Wide Guard on Meteor Beam sets helps sway me towards 2.

Kyurem: UR →Tier 3
Actuarily: UR. Running this on hail means you’re running two ice types, and that means you’ve got some impossible matchups.

Nido-Rus: UR, usable on hail and hail is certainly more respectable than it used to be, but too similar to Kyurem-B while being almost a straight downgrade. Personally, the loss of fusion bolt is more significant to me than the 10 extra special attack that this offers for blizzard spam.

Paraplegic: UR, hail sucks to begin with and kyurem is a straight downgrade from kyube in every single way except 10 base spa, which doesn’t feel anywhere close to significant enough to rank lol.

SMB: Huh? UR, average speed tier, relies on weather, not that bulky and 99% of the time I’d rather use kyurem black and bait a good set even if i’m using scarf or specs.

umbry: UR, i don't think the 10 base special attack boost is enough to justify it being ranked.

Yoda2798: Tier 5. Enough of a thing on hail to be ranked for me personally.

Ninetales-A: UR →Tier 3
Actuarily: Tier 5. Aurora veil, encore, decently fast icy wind/blizzard, and a weather setter is just enough.

Nido-Rus: Tier 5, solid use case on a niche weather. Iffy mon in itself with awful bulk and special attack, but aurora veil + decent typing and speed allow it to be worthwhile enough for hail.

Paraplegic: UR, hail is really bad imo.

SMB: Tier 5, does ok on the right team with the right partners, decent speed control + aurora veil is fine although there aren’t many good set up mons atm to make a full team dedicated to aurora veil. Fits better with bulky, strong attackers.

umbry: 5. Does its job as a support and weather setter but only fits on a niche playstyle.

Yoda2798: Tier 5. Aurora Veil + decent Speed is barely enough to justify it as a Pokemon.

Volcarona: Tier 4 →Tier 3
Actuarily: Tier 4. Quiver Dance needs to remove so much before it can set up, and even then it needs to get off 2 before it really hits like it wants. The ragepowder/TW set has some niche, but most teams are better off running another TW setter.

Nido-Rus: Tier 4, too many threats that wall or beat quiver dance right now, and rage powder is becoming less and less worthwhile in this slow and bulky metagame.

Paraplegic: Tier 4, agree with everyone else.

SMB: Tier 4, sweeping with a quiver dance set is almost impossible, too many matchups it doesn’t want to face. Also rock types are at their peak

umbry: 4. Quiver dance runs into too many unfavorable matchups and support sets are often outclassed.

Yoda2798: Tier 4. Semiroom being strong prevents Quiver Dance from getting off the ground, among other things, and support sets are back to being pretty unviable.

Heatran: Tier 2 →Tier 3
Actuarily: Tier 2. Eruption in TW is still extremely oppressive, and the LO flash cannon set lets it hit so much. Definitely is reliant on good speed control.

Nido-Rus: Tier 3, has been losing prevalence with the rise in popularity of bulky semiroom. Harder to compete with volcanion and incineroar in this metagame.

Paraplegic: Tier 3, the worst of the 3 fires right now, noticeably worse than steamy in the current meta and not anywhere close to incin in terms of usefulness right now. Its also a mediocre steel :(

SMB: tier 3, atm it only fits in tailwind offense, which is not that good. It also relies too much on its partners to do something. Like honestly the main perk i see to take the fire type slot on any other build that’s not tw offense is having a better matchup than volcanion / incineroar against celesteela.

umbry: 3. Eruption is able to exert enormous amounts of pressure, in particular vs slower teams, life orb set is also solid. However it’s often reliant on specific support to work consistently and offers 0 defensive utility, harder to justify on a team than other fire types, especially on more conservative builds.

Yoda2798: Tier 3. Still a strong spread attacker, but the teams it shines on aren’t quite so dominant anymore. Faces tough competition in Incineroar and Volcanion.

Volcanion: Tier 2 →Tier 1
Actuarily: Tier 2. While it fits on literally every team, it has enough bad matchups with popular mons (Kyu-b, fini, P2) to make it not quite Tier 1 material.

Nido-Rus: Tier 2, very solid mon but not a ‘do-everything’ mon or ‘extremely oppressive at one thing’ mon by any means.

Paraplegic: Tier 2, agree with everyone else.

SMB: Tier 2, solid mon that can fit and shine on almost any team. It’s not at the same level than what we have on tier 1 tho.

umbry: 2. Obviously a great mon and fits on a lot of builds, doesn’t stand out as tier 1 though.

Yoda2798: Tier 2. Good Pokemon but definitely not Tier 1. Heatran was needing to move down, not Volcanion up.

Zygarde: Tier 2 →Tier 3
Actuarily: Tier 2. Banded thousand arrows in TW is still the best way to accumulate damage in the tier, and many teams are extremely weak to the ddance set.

Nido-Rus: Tier 2, has been less popular lately with a lot of teams replacing it with lando, but it still fits the metagame well and is a solid, reliable threat.

Paraplegic: Tier 3, I think zygarde is noticeably worse than it once was and its relative lack of usage compared to earlier in crown tundra is indicative of that. The fact that it has actual competition now in lando feels like the final nail in the coffin to me and I believe it should drop.

SMB: Band set is tier 2, easily the best ground type on the tier and the most reliable mon at spreading damage. Generally a solid wincon against semiroom/trick room builds.

umbry: 3. CB is still the best set but has competition with landorus as a ground type and can often be abused by teams with good board control, also hard to overcome common checks like rillaboom, kyurem and p2.

Yoda2798: Tier 2. Facing actual competition as an offensive Ground-type in Landorus-I definitely takes a knock, but I’m not yet convinced enough for it to drop. Being a strong spread attacker is valuable, and Superpower helps mitigate the problem of Porygon2. Very much appreciates Incineroar as a partner to deal with its checks.

Dragapult: Tier 2 →Tier 4
Actuarily: Tier 3. Has two solid sets, but enough bad matchups that can make it hard to fit on some teams. Despite its great typing it struggles to switch in on a lot.

Nido-Rus: Tier 3.5 if it existed, tier 3 for now. Much more iffy to run in this bulkier semiroom metagame, but fake out-immune draco nukes and shadow balls are still usable. Its typing and stats lead me to believe that it’ll rise back up eventually as the metagame develops.

Paraplegic: Tier 2, yall are tripping. Special pult sucks, but DD is such a potent wincon that is often stupidly hard to successfully play around. Ghost is a good ass type in this meta where only a few good pokemon resist/are immune to it(like 5 pokemon, incin p2 indeedee ttar goltres, of which the latter 2 only count as half a mon each) and the fact that you can’t intimidate it means that, well positioned and supported, this mon is one of the most potent wincons in the tier and can easily find itself ripping through teams unopposed with phantom force.

SMB: Tier 3, specs still puts a lot of pressure on many teams and has a nice defensive typing.

umbry: 4. Decent anti-offense mon at best, specs almost always has to trade itself to achieve the slightest progress and even if it doesn’t the choice lock is easily abusable, especially after draco meteor dropping its own special attack. DD does similar things but requires more support and still runs into lots of unfavorable matchups, both sets are outclassed imo but the main thing going for it is its fake out immunity which can be crucial in offense mirrors.

Yoda2798: Tier 3. Choice Specs is still fairly solid, but semiroom is a bit annoying, and Naganadel gives it some competition.

Nihilego: Tier 4 →Tier 3
Actuarily: Tier 4. Can’t take any chip damage or it dies to a grassy glide, and has some really bad matchups. Can be really strong in the right situation though.

Nido-Rus: Tier 4, strong snowballing potential but metagame is still very unkind to it. Only saving grace is the slight drop in rillaboom usage and increase in incineroar usage, but not enough to make it generally worthwhile.

Paraplegic: Tier 3, Agree with smb this mon is the shit and is my pick for scariest mon for bulkier builds right now.

SMB: Tier 3, rillaboom and zygarde dropping in usage give it more room to do its thing. Probably the best mon atm at snowballing games.

umbry: 4. Definitely has potential but needs a lot going its way to snowball games, its poor bulk and reliance on meteor beam make it often abusable. Folds to speed control, zeraora outspeeds and can threaten a knock off, zygarde and metagross pretty much wall it, rillaboom recently dropping a bit in usage make it easier to justify on teams but it’s still too inconsistent of a mon for a rise imo.

Yoda2798: Tier 4. While it has had a slight resurgence, I haven’t seen anything showing it should rise. Part of the reason people started using Nihilego again is it can outspeed and KO Landorus-I with Meteor Beam, but that being able to live a +1 Power Gem (e.g. after using Protect on Beam) means it’s not even completely reliable at that.

Rillaboom: Tier 1 →Tier 2
Actuarily: Tier 1. As long as expanding force exists, this will be Tier 1. The best glue mon in the format, just does so much in 1 slot.

Nido-Rus: Still tier 1, but tier 1.5 if it was possible. Still solid but losing effectiveness with the rise of incineroar, celesteela, etc.

Paraplegic: Tier 1, agree with everyone else

SMB: Tier 1, it has dropped a bit in usage and it’s probably not the S++ required on any team mon that was before, but it is still a mon that is splashable and useful on any game.

umbry: Easier to abuse than before but probably still tier 1, being one of the best fini and urshifu checks is a big plus and it still fits on almost every team. Its ability to constantly shake up the board with fake out+terrain reset as well as being able to adapt to what your team needs with its last moveslot is what makes it so great and splashable in my opinion, wood hammer, knock off and high horsepower all achieve different purposes and do a great job at that.

Yoda2798: Tier 1. Still the same splashable pivot as ever. Incineroar being as good as it is does hurt Rillaboom a little, since it’s easier to forego monkey with cat doing similar Fake Out/pivot things, but it’s still Tier 1.

Zeraora: Tier 2 →Tier 3
Actuarily: Tier 2. Lando’s rise is bad for it, but it’s great into stuff that’s become popular to counter Lando. Fast fake out + taunt + knock off can just be extremely oppressive.

Nido-Rus: Tier 2, taunt is particularly great right now.

Paraplegic: Tier 3, agree with the drop crowd on this one.

SMB: I think it should be 1 tier above zapdos so I’m going to be coherent with my votings. Tier 3, still a really nice utility mon but its offensive presence has dropped drastically so I don’t think it deserves tier 2 anymore.

umbry: 3. Fast taunt is great but there being another common offensive ground type has hurt its viability a lot, it’s still able to offer lots of utility but often feels super passive especially with incineroar being so popular right now.

Yoda2798: Tier 3. Nice utility, but is often quite passive, especially due to Incineroar being everywhere. Pokemon like Incineroar and Mew can also provide some of the same utility while generally being better, making it harder to justify.

Torkoal: Tier 5 →Tier 3
Actuarily: Tier 4. Great under TR and the best sun setter, but it really needs free switches to get 100% eruptions off.

Nido-Rus: Tier 5, only seen on very specific fullroom teams. Pretty solid there, but the teams themselves are iffy by nature.

Paraplegic: Tier 5, I don’t even think this is the best fire type on fullroom, and while I acknowledge it has a useful and worthwhile niche I don’t believe its niche is worthy of being above tier 5.

SMB: Tier 4, it’s by far the best tr attacker and being able to control weather is key on some matchups full tr would struggle with otherwise.

umbry: 5. Only fits on a couple teams from what I’ve seen and it’s not the most solid archetypes, still good at doing its job there though.

Yoda2798: Tier 5. Limited to some fullroom teams, which isn’t enough of a thing for it to warrant Tier 4.

Urshifu-R: Tier 2 →Tier 1
Actuarily: Tier 2. Obviously does a ton of great things offensively, but is just ohko’d by so many mons.

Nido-Rus: Tier 2, much less threatening than it used to be but still a solid mon on offense. Sub > ice punch as third move.

Paraplegic: Tier 2, this is a solid offensive piece but it has a lot holding it back in its place and its fine where it is.

SMB: Tier 3, when a mon shines the most on weather teams you know something has gone bad for it. Pretty much the same reasons that I gave for heatran, relies on its partners to do something. Threatening if it manages to get a good positioning but I don’t think that’s too easy considering the glaring weaknesses it has.

umbry: 2. Life orb paired with double fake out is particularly strong atm, like volcanion it’s a great mon but doesn’t stand out as tier1

Yoda2798: Tier 2. No longer the threat it was alongside Kartana.

Metagross: Tier 3 →Tier 2
Actuarily: Tier 3. It gets to pick what it wants to check with resist berries, and there’s a ton of fun sets it can run. I’ve been voting tier 2 for a long time, but I’ve found there’s a lot fewer compositions it works on nowadays.

Nido-Rus: Tier 3, same as my reasoning last time around. Solid bulk, good support options, and hits pretty hard, but just short of hard enough to actually be threatening. Middling speed tier and not-very-strong moves outside of steel roller means it’s sometimes sitting on the field not doing enough. Walling psyspam is also less worthwhile now.

Paraplegic: Tier 2, I stan this mon and still think it is far and away the best steel type in the tier at doing what you want steel types to do. It also is a beast at generating progress game in game out and is criminally underrated in terms of its customizability(see: my dwcop tie breaks game for just one example of what I mean, this mon can do whatever the fuck you want it to do and its so epic).

SMB: Tier 4, good example of a mon that wants to do a lot of things and doesn’t really do any.

umbry: 3. Solid steel type, toxic/stealth rock as last moves offer great utility but often wants to do so many things at once that it is so easy to trade enough health with it to make it lose all its defensive purpose. Steel roller is its main way to apply offensive pressure and you constantly need to be able to set terrain up for it not to run into unpleasant scenarios.

Yoda2798: Tier 3. Doesn’t reliably do enough to be Tier 2. Mainly good for dealing with Kyurem-B/Diancie, but usually struggles to do much beyond that. The allure of lure sets is also lessened now, Incineroar/Volcanion are much less susceptible to Occa Berry Berry/Stomping Tantrum than Heatran is, while Landorus-I does enough damage with Earth Power that it can KO through Shuca Berry with enough chip, with Protect also giving more leeway compared to the Choice-locked Zygarde.

Necrozma: Tier 3 →Tier 2
Actuarily: Tier 3. Psyspam is still a great choice, and it can be run on other semi-room compositions, but a lot of what it can do is done better by other mons on those semi-room teams.

Nido-Rus: Tier 3, psyspam still good but the recent rise of bulky semiroom teams, incineroar, celesteela, cresselia etc all just make it harder to justify using.

Paraplegic: Tier 3, agree with everyone else. Eforce is still a busted ass move though.

SMB: Tier 3 i guess, it’s good at taking advantage of passive teams and i’ve seen many teams not using terrains lately. The usage of bulky psychic and steel types has raised tho. Not close to being tier 2 material imo.

umbry: 3. I’d say necrozma is in a better spot right now than it was before, the rise of slower teams with incineroar as the lone fake out mon give it more freedom to do its thing with meteor beam and snowball games from there. However it really only fits on psyspam and it’s already a bit of a niche playstyle to begin with, it’s closer to tier 4 than tier 2 imo, tier 5 if indeedee is the psychic terrain setter.

Yoda2798: Tier 3. Psyspam is still in the same place, it’s fine, but definitely not Tier 2 material. As mentioned above, other semiroom compositions are also more popular/better.


Changes:
:landorus: Tier 3 -> Tier 2
:mew: Tier 3 -> Tier 2
:naganadel: Tier 3 -> Tier 2
:genesect: Tier 2 -> Tier 3
:incineroar: Tier 2 -> Tier 1
:celesteela: Tier 4 -> Tier 2
:mew: Tier 3 -> Tier 2
:ninetales-alola: UR -> Tier 5
:heatran: Tier 2 -> Tier 3
:dragapult: Tier 2 -> Tier 3
:zeraora: Tier 2 -> Tier 3
:kommo-o: Tier 5 -> UR
:landorus-therian: Tier 4 -> Tier 5
:spectrier: Tier 4 -> Tier 5
:sylveon: UR -> Tier 5
:whimsicott: UR -> Tier 5
:zapdos-galar: Tier 4 -> Tier 5
 
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I spent more time building for this seasonal than probably anyone else and feel pretty solid in my understanding of the meta. Bunch of proposed changes to the VR, starting with the ones I feel the most strongly about and ending with a few that are more just minor suggestions.

:pheromosa: Pheromosa UR -> 5 Replay Replay
This mon went 2-0 in the grand finals of a seasonal. It outspeeds every neutral mon in the tier, and lots of +1 / scarfers that don't run jolly or timid. It's most similar to Urshifu- less bulk and doesn't break protect, which make it worse, but the ability to change moves while still outspeeding everything is a huge bonus. Fast and strong CC + uturn + ice beam is extremely threatening, and the added utility of speed swap onto mons like Amoonguss and Heatran make this mon a menace to stare down.

:tyranitar: Tyranitar 5 -> 4 :dracovish: Dracovish UR -> 5 Replay
Sand is good. Brought both of these mons to seasonal several times. Tyranitar, as in every gen, is super fun to use because it can run such a wide variety of sets. The rise over the last year of the assault vest set is really what bumps it to tier 4 for me- being able to switch in on strong special attackers like Nihilego and Heatran and being able to threaten in response is valuable. Shutting down psyspam is a huge bonus too.
Dracovish gets a bad reputation for being cheesy, but it's good. Band + sand rush is its best set and almost nothing can switch in on it. It's a super strong attacker with non negligible bulk, also a water type that doesn't hard lose to Rilla.

:whimsicott: Whimsicott 5 -> 4
Another mon traditionally looked down upon as cheesy, in the last few months we've seen remarkable consistency from this mon with fake tears / encore / tailwind and one of moonblast or protect. It offers fast speed control, disrupts setup and fake out mons with encore, breaks thick mons with fake tears, and resists Urshifu and Rillaboom.

:tapu-lele: Tapu Lele 3 -> 4, :indeedee-f: Indeedee-F 4 -> 3
Indeedee is the better psychic terrain setter. Lele is too frail, has an awkward speed tier, and doesn't get expanding force. The combined utility of terrain + follow me is definitely better. For evidence, see JRL's run with Indeedee Necrozma psyspam.

:ferrothorn: Ferrothorn UR -> 5
How tf is ferrothorn unranked? Standard set (stabs + leech) is good, we've also seen success with AV on rain teams and demon (iron defense) as a wincon. Solid mon that easily deserves to be ranked.

And then some quick rises and drops that I don't think need too much explaining:
:naganadel: Naganadel 2 -> 3 certainly a great mon but not quite tier 2 caliber
:zapdos-galar: Galarian Zapdos 5 -> 4
:chansey: Chansey UR -> 5 Replay
:blastoise: Blastoise 4 -> 5
:ribombee: Ribombee 5 -> UR (breaks my heart, but too much semiroom running around for this to be good)
:scrafty: Scrafty 5 -> UR
:hatterene: Hatterene 5 -> UR
:togekiss: Togekiss 5 -> UR
 
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Actuarily

is a Community Leaderis a Tiering Contributor
Doubles Leader
:Stakataka: UR -> 4, This mon gets slightly overshadowed by Diancie to the point that we forgot how good it can be. Hits like an absolute truck in TR and can beat all of the semi-room mons. Ohko’s Diancie & Volcanion, has the option to beat Amoonguss with heat crash, or body press can ignore incin’s intimidate and let you chunk P2. I personally like just running 3 attacks + protect and letting another mon set TR (Cress is its best partner). To show how stupid hard it hits:

252+ Atk Life Orb Stakataka Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 248 HP / 36 Def Rillaboom: 370-437 (91.8 - 108.4%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8doublesou-1542394528
 

Noelle

Trying my best
is a Community Contributor
:ribombee: 5 -> UR I feel like webs kinda suck rn, theres tons of semiroom and fullroom running around that webs are inherently weak to and even then a lot of teams run ground immunes (landorus, celesteela, cresselia, zapdos) boots mons (incin, volcanion) and clear body mons (metagross and diancie, though diancie isnt the best example as it would probably like the speed drop) these mons/items are common enough to the point where 1/2 to 2/3rds of a team can just be completely immune to webs even if you do get a seemingly good webs matchup. this isnt even going into the problems with ribombee itself, such as it's frailty and crippling weakness to taunt/trick. webs seem like a pretty big matchup fish rn, would not recommend

:scrafty: 5 -> UR I made a post about this a while ago, and i still agree, scrafty blows. It's lack of a pivot move, meh defensive typing and worse stats make it really hard to justify on pretty much any team over incineroar other than some niche fullroom builds which it is admittedly decent on. Though, even when granted it's place on fullroom, i don't feel like having a niche (key word: niche. it's not a fullroom staple or anything, it just functions on some builds) on an already niche team style while being outclassed by incin in any other situation is tier 5 worthy imo

:hatterene: 5 -> UR Same reason as scrafty really. Mostly outclassed by necrozma and i don't feel like it's good enough when it is used to justify being ranked. Like i said, having a niche on an already niche playstyle like fullroom is probably not deserving of being ranked.

:togekiss: 5 -> UR I don't know why this thing is still ranked. With hat and scrafty i can kinda see how you would argue them being ranked, even though i don't agree, but seriously why is this thing still ranked, its just not good. it was good in kart meta, but after kart's ban it lost any niche it may have had prior. I guess it has a niche as a redirector that also knows tailwind and can troll grass and fighting types... is what i would say if volcarona didn't exist and didn't do everything i just described and more better than togekiss does. idk how to end this but i've said everything i feel is necessary about this mon, moving on

:indeedee F: 4 -> 3 This nom is pretty simple, i feel like lele and indeedee are pretty comparable in terms of how good they are as psyterrain setters, so it should be ranked with lele. I pretty much agree with fespy's nom other than lele dropping to t4, i feel like lele is a fine mon and indeedee and lele are pretty relative to each other in my book

:Whimsicott: 5-> 4 I pretty much agree with the other noms, after using whimsicott myself it can cause a ton of disruption to teams that are heavily reliant on fake out or setup, and it can help a lot with breaking bulkier teams with fake tears. prankster tailwind is also really good. definitely a pretty niche mon but it's certainly usable and is probably around the level of nihilego or tsareena

:Metagross: 3 -> 2 this one i'm not entirely sure on this one, but i think metagross to t2 is fair. i think the standard metagross set is probably better than most t3 mons, like genesect, dragapult, and zera, but the main reason i'm nomming this is the cosmic power set, which i unironically think is really good. A well played cosmic power metagross is a very potent wincon and a lot of players have seen success using it, including myself. It's also fairly easy to support/build around and it's uncommon enough that it can still catch a lot of people off guard. A lot of the mons you want to use with cosmic power are also used with standard metagross as well, which makes it difficult to tell which set you're dealing with in some cases. I don't feel like it's the best mon in t2 or anything, but it's probably better than most of t3 imo.

:Ferrothorn: UR -> 5 this mon is enough of a thing on rain to be ranked imo. my personal favorite set is av, but it can also run iron defense body press sets and leech seed sets. It can also outright beat a lot of semiroom mons which rain appreciates. It's ability to function as a bulky steel type with av as well as a wincon with iron defense definitely make it good enough to be ranked in my eyes.

Replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8doublesou-1534326912 ferro didn't do too much here, but it chipped 2 mons so kingdra could come in and kill them both with muddy water

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8doublesou-1540232827 pretty much single handedly beats kb through reflect and still can function as a defensive switchin the rest of the game

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8doublesou-619053 here's a non rain replay too because why not

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8doublesou-1543939208 ferrothorn put in a ton of work this game and nearly won the game by itself

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8doublesou-1543962782 another game where ferrothorn put in a decent amount of work


I also think staka should be t5 but im not going to nom it myself because i would mostly just be parroting things actuarily said bc i agree with his post completely, staka has a niche as a strong semiroom/fullroom delete button that's really good into opposing semiroom and can snowball with beast boosts. I don't really have much to add other than that

pretty sure that's everything i wanted to cover
 

zoe

Harbinger
is an official Team Rateris a Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Site Content Manager Alumnus
DPL Champion
:crobat: UR->5

This thing has several desirable qualities for a Tailwind setter that I think make it deserving of Tier 5. For starters, it's the fastest non-Prankster Tailwind setter, which while its certainly not as important as it was in the past, can be extremely helpful for certain situations. Another point in its favor is its access to Taunt, which while not as fast as Zeraora's, still allows Crobat to act as excellent role compression between a Tailwind setter and a fast Taunt user while still having good effectiveness in both departments. Super Fang also allows it to force progress on the opposing team on a semi-consistent basis. When paired with its astounding speed, Crobat can allow it's teammates to pick up a kill they normally wouldn't have been able to. However, by far its best trait is its Fake Out immunity. Inner Focus allows Crobat to set Tailwind far more consistently than other Tailwind setters, who would usually need support by either Tsareena or Psychic Terrain to replicate this. I don't think its anything higher than 4 because it lacks the offensive pressure of Naganadel and Zapdos while not having the defensive utility or diversity in sets of Mew. While its natural Fake Out immunity is nifty, it doesn't necessarily make up for the traits that the other Tailwind setters have over it.

Replay from DWCOP tiebreakers: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8doublesou-1457909334-19dv8y9yqq42yvlv7io8i6r2kp59a4upw
 
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venu UR to 4/5

I think weather should be used a decent bit more and for sun we have venu which has great coverage and fast sleep.

The main venu set ive been using:

Venusaur @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 32 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 216 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Solar Beam
- Weather Ball
- Earth Power
- Sleep Powder

(This speed outspeeds scarf lando i)

This set has no tect so want psy which is where sun shines most anyways.

Heres some replays of it in weather psyspam (sun and sunhail)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8doublesou-1441164312-qf25qzk09u8rrminj6d9c3wot8yphi7pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8doublesou-1441157678-uyd8789yk5m02358rwnh99d4odf8xvkpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8doublesou-1501391518-6ivn465no6tlzfa6vg0qwn09kddmchvpw

Also I think staka could be 2 or 3 its actually a crazy mon being able to do so much damage. Its started being used more now that more people see its potential.
 

zoe

Harbinger
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DPL Champion
:stakataka: UR->5

Arguably one of the most threatening Pokemon under Trick Room at the moment (probably not actually but let me use my hyperbole ok). Gyro Ball hits like a freight train and absolutely tears open holes in the opponent's team by the sheer amount of damage it outputs (with Life Orb it 2HKO's freaking Urshifu which resists it and has 100/100 bulk). Gyro Ball at least 2HKOs (or has a chance to) 12 out of 14 current Tier 1 and 2 Pokemon, making it extremely difficult to switch into. In addition, it can beat nearly all of its checks with its surprisingly large movepool. Heat Crash OHKOs Amoonguss, High Horsepower does a good amount to Metagross and OHKOs Heatran, Stone Edge for the OHKO on Volcanion and 2HKO on Incineroar (although it just barely lives lol), and Body Press still hits Incineroar and Heatran while ignoring Intimidate and benefiting from Defense boosts. Beast Boost is also extremely good for it, as the sheer amount of KOs it can force allows it to reliably get one of either Attack or Defense boosts, both of which make it much harder to stop. It setting it's own Trick Room is also good, however I will admit it falls short in this department due to its meh defensive typing leaving it open to a massive amount of attackers like the aforementioned Volcanion and Urshifu-R. Not only does this mandate Fake Out support (or Trick Room support from more reliable setters), it also makes it extremely reliant on Trick Room to pose the same threat I chalked it up to be earlier, as well as it not being uncommon for it to fall short even under Trick Room, however it'll still likely do a decent amount even after a single round of TR.

Replay from Seasonals Winners Finals: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8doublesou-1542394528
 

Crunchman

Banned deucer.
Rise noms:
:mew: Tier 2 -> Tier 1: Welp, the cat is out of the bag. It seems like there's a new Mew set every week, each more powerful than the last. Between its Snarl-Wisp set, which originally brought it back to prominence in the metagame, in addition to more traditional Tailwind sets, Mew already had an established presence in DOU. Now add to this the rise of hazard stack sets, immediate denial of Urshifu with Psychic (and a bevy of other great coverage moves). Offensive options like Meteor Beam/Expanding Force can be teched to great effect in matchups. This is not even including the constant threat of Cosmic Power Mew taking games over. Especially in a tournament setting, having to respect so many options at once really stifles play and is a huge advantage of using Mew, in addition to the mon inherently having solid stats and utility. Perhaps strangely, what I've found to be one of the most consistent Mew sets is actually the Storms' Scarf set. Thanks to a wide assortment of coverage moves (as mentioned above) such as Psychic, Ice Beam, Earth Power, and Flamethrower, Scarf Mew can snipe a large portion of the offensive metagame. Trick also lets it get value in practically every game, as almost nothing likes getting tricked a Choice Scarf, and can especially shut down cheese/setup strategies and cripple Trick Room setters.
Mew fits into pretty much every playstyle. It can set Trick Room for fullroom and semiroom teams, it can set Tailwind for more balanced teams, or even offensive/hyper-offensive teams. It has options like Coaching and Pollen Puff to supplement its Fake Out support for more setup-oriented teams. it is the most reliable hazard stacker. Scarf Trick Mew is a robust way to shut down more defensive strategies. Mew doesn't excel at every role it can fulfill, but I believe the stupid amount of diverse sets it can run makes it worthy of T1. I used Mew two times this DPL, and the Ducks SS used it in over half of their teams. (I'm sure other teams used it too, I just happen to have the Ducks scout on hand.)
1652427439940.png
:dragapult: Tier 3 -> Tier 2: Dragapult is a very strong counterlead/speed control option right now in its special form. Really the only thing it needs to worry about outspeeding it is Zeraora, and most have started opting for Snarl over Knock Off. Dragon Dance is still something that you have to respect, but Special Dragapult, both Specs and Life Orb, is capable of exerting a lot of pressure. There isn't a whole lot that loves switching into its moves, and it dunks on some of the more common fastmons like Naganadel, Landorus, Urshifu, and Mew. Being Fake Out immune and having access to U-turn are great for it too, but Shadow Ball/Draco Meteor with a choice of Tbolt, Flame, or Hydro coverage is very strong atm, and I think it could deserve Tier 2. It really is a great flexible option for any team thats lacking in speed, probably a more balancy/semiroom build appreciates it best.
:indeedee-f: Tier 4 -> Tier 3: Psyspam as always is slightly fishy but has to be respected. Indeedee-F's main selling point over Tapu Lele is redirection, and redirection it does do. As teams have been moving away from Zyg/Tran builds redirection only gets stronger, and dual redirection cores like Amoonguss Indeedee can be very annoying to break through.
Ferro and Stak have already been nommed so I won't bother with replays, but Stak pretty much fits into Tier 5 like a glove fits onto a hand. On the other hand, I would consider taking Ferro straight up to Tier 4. It excels in Rain, and at this point is pretty much integral to rain structures, and has set variety in AV/ID BP (idk if anyone is using band or curse). It also has some uses outside of Rain Teams as an IDBP setup sweeper. I've been playing with this and it has been quite enjoyable.

Drop noms:
:kyurem-black: Tier 1 -> Tier 2: You can never discount a 700 base stat Pokemon. Kyurem-Black is still dangerous, and still fits onto teams without too much trouble. The return of Incineroar however bodes quite poorly for the Dragon Dance set, and Kyu-B structures generally fare poorly into Trick Room and/or Psyspam structures. Kyu-B is still pretty great into more balanced structures and weather based teams but often has to run scared shitless from Urshifu.
:genesect: Tier 3 -> Tier 4: Idk, there's really not much to say. Genesect is still certainly servicable but every team has a fire + Kyu-B usage is down. Perhaps one of its most redeeming qualities is being able to always live a Lando-I Earth Power, that's pretty much where it ends.
:blastoise: Tier 4 -> Tier 5: This might be a bit harsh but there's really no room in the meta for Blastoise anymore. Amoonguss and Indeedee are just better for redirection, and with how much you want to be checking huge threats like Naganadel/Lando/Urshifu offensively Blastoise just doesn't make very much sense anymore. (Amoonguss doesn't check these offensively but Spore is fucking broken) (/j) (not really)

The last few weeks I've been playing this meta have been very enjoyable. Team dump + S/Os coming out this weekend. Cheers everyone
 

Paraplegic

relax...
is a Community Leader Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Hey everyone, VR update time! Umbry dropped from VR council so we did a 5 man vote and this is the results


Kyurem-Black: Tier 1 →Tier 2
Actuarily: Tier 1. Both of its main sets (DD and AV) are really good at what they do, and it even has good surprise sets like scarf. It’s the hardest Pokémon to account for in the team builder, requiring pretty much everyone to run one of like 5 Pokémon that check it

Yoda2798: Tier 2. Assault Vest is obviously not what it used to be, and I feel like people are fairly prepared for Dragon Dance so it doesn’t run away with the game so often. 7th in usage in DPL with 44% win rate doesn’t point to a Tier 1 Pokemon, and in-game it doesn’t feel like one either. Obviously usage isn’t everything, but it doesn’t have the effectiveness needed for Tier 1 either, and is more in line with the rest of Tier 2 than the clear-cut-above-the-rest-you-should-basically-always-be-trying-to-use it once was.

Nido-Rus: Tier 2, yoda explains it well. AV is still definitely good, but hardly the dominating force it once was. It's great at sticking around but often just too passive when it does. DD meanwhile has very specific sithations where it can set up and even at +1 icicle spear is unreliable. Also very much suffers against incin, easily gets intim'd or hit by parting shot. This is not to say that it isn't good, both sets are still genuinely great and absolutely deserving of tier 2. But not quite tier 1 viability.

SMB: Tier 1, best set up mon and with very specific checks. Av set really good at spreading damage and as a glue for many teams. Wide variety of sets like scarf, band, specs, life orb that are good too.

Paraplegic: Tier 1, I’m still of the opinion that this is the best mon in the tier. DD is easily the single scariest threat in the tier and it combined with av and to a lesser extent scarf make it an easy ass tier 1 in my eyes.


Mew: Tier 2 →Tier 1
Actuarily: Tier 1. It’s the best tailwind setter, the best hazard setter, the best coaching mon, has tons of other good support options like fake out & pollen puff, the will-o-wisp/snarl set can be devastating for slow bulky teams, etc. Even if you just want to run tailwind +3 attacks it does this well by chunking most of the meta.

Yoda2798: Tier 2. I can see the argument for this, and while the versatility does let it work on most teams, I don’t think that paints the full picture. The easily best thing it does is Tailwind sets, with a number of possible support or offensive additions, and for me the main argument for the nom would be its ubiquity as a Tailwind setter. Other sets help solidify Mew in Tier 2 but aren’t Tier 2 themselves, especially Choice Scarf which can’t be a serious argument for Tier 1. If multiple sets (e.g. Will-O-Wisp / Snarl or Cosmic Power) were individually on the level of Tier 2 then I could see that being an argument for Tier 1 (e.g. like Kyurem-B’s two sets), but that’s not the case. So going back to Tailwind, the metagame only has a few good setters, Naganadel is a great offensive one, and there’s a few more niche ones, but Mew sits largely unchallenged as a (bulky) setter, and happens to be pretty good at it too. So given that, is Mew Tier 1? That’s what I see as the crux of the argument, and while I understand it I don’t quite agree. There are other Tailwind setters, and many teams don’t need it. Even on the right teams, I don’t think Mew’s performing at a Tier 1 level. The way I’d sum it up is while Mew can basically always fit on a team, it won’t always be at a Tier 2 level, and will never be at a Tier 1 level.

Nido-Rus: Tier 2. IMO the only argument for tier 1 here is mew's versatility in sets and the surprise factor it brings about because of this. Each of its individual sets, while definitely good, are rarely the best in the format for what they do. The few times they are is primarily to fulfill some niche role specific to a team rather than function as a general threat.

SMB: Tier 2, it has a couple of tier 2 sets (focused on speed control and with attacks that actually check what mew has to check), then the rest of the sets are either tier 4, 5 or UR.

Paraplegic: Tier 2, I agree with everyone else bar act that mew just doesn’t reach tier 1, I was really tempted to vote tier 1 because I love preaching busting out random mew sets and I think they can be incredibly devastating, but I just can’t find myself being able to justify it when comparing mew to rilla, kyube, or incin.


Naganadel: Tier 2 →Tier 3
Actuarily: Tier 2. Naga combines fast tailwind + offensive pressure in a way no other Pokémon can, and its typing is quite good for this metagame, allowing it to be useful despite its pitiful bulk.

Yoda2798: Tier 2. Naganadel is solidly Tier 2, one of the best offensive Pokemon and one of the few good Tailwind setters. Its typing even helps make up for the main weakness of low bulk by providing some key resistances so it can actually live some hits.

Nido-Rus: Tier 2. Great tailwind setter with amazing offensive pressure with its coverage. Good defensive typing as well to make up for its lack of bulk. A nearly uncontested speed tier (outside stuff like zeraora or pult) is particularly good for a tailwind setter, especially with it threatening immediate KOs.

SMB: Tier 3, good on offense teams but pretty disappointing when you see calcs against stuff that it should beat. On these offense teams it has to pick between setting tailwind or fail to get a ohko just to get ohkoed back. It wants both protect and 3 attacks, both life orb and sash… What makes it good is what it has by its side generally. It’s versatile tho, av and scarf sets are good but none of its sets are tier 2.

Paraplegic: Tier 2, amazing offensive tailwind setter thats super threatening and potent, not much more to say.


Dragapult: Tier 3 →Tier 2
Actuarily: Tier 3. The combo of being fast + fake out immune + a good move pool does let it check a lot of the offensive threats of the tier, however it really struggles with any of the bulkier Pokémon like P2/Fini/Incin/Diancie, which really limits its offense pressure. DD can definitely take over games if the opponent isn’t prepared for it, but it’s wack physical ghost move pool can really hold it back.

Yoda2798: Tier 3. This hasn’t gotten any better since last time when it was voted down, Dragon Dance competes with Kyurem-B, Special is usually worse than Naganadel, and the DPL stats clearly reflect that. Ghost-type is nice but not enough to hold it back from being worse than Tier 2.

Nido-Rus: Tier 3. Probably one of the best in tier 3, but the current bulkier meta really doesn't work in its favor. Hard to justify using this with its frailty and comparatively low damage against DD kyub or naganadel.

SMB: Tier 3, specs infiltrator is good specially against teams with no ghost resists, dd is decent too but a bit risky and needs almost a full team dedicated to it, neither is good enough for a rise tho. Also pls stop using special sets with clear body, not hitting mons behind a sub is terrible for this set :weary: or keep using them so i can win more games idk

Paraplegic: Tier 2, I believe the DD set is one of the best wincons in the meta and is at a tier 2 threat level, special is cheeks though.


Metagross: Tier 3 →Tier 2
Actuarily: Tier 2. The best check to three things that are required to be checked: Kyu-b, Diancie, and Psyspam. Beyond that it has good coverage and support moves, and if you aren’t expecting the cosmic power set, it can easily take over games.

Yoda2798: Tier 2. I’m not fully sold on it, but Cosmic Power helps tip the scales enough for me. One of the best Steel-types, especially against Kyurem-B and Diancie which is what you want from it.

Nido-Rus: Tier 2. A bit iffy on this nom. I think right now the meta generally favors this, with the cosmic power set proving to be particularly annoying if you aren't prepared for it. Would not be surprised to see this move down in the future.

SMB: Tier 3, as always, can do a lot of things and it’s not excellent at any. Stopping to see steel roller sets makes me happy tho.

Paraplegic: Tier 2! This finally going through makes me so happy as someone who has been preaching gross for the entirety of crown tundra. It took popularizing an entirely new set to finally accomplish it but tier 2 gross finally happened LETS GOOOOOO!


Genesect: Tier 3 →Tier 4
Actuarily: Tier 3. Shift gear Genesect can be really devastating on the right composition, and the scarf set is good at being able to either pivot or snipe most of the metagame.

Yoda2798: Tier 4. I feel similar to SMB, Genesect definitely has potential to be Tier 3 again at some point, but currently it’s not doing so hot so a drop for now is warranted.

Nido-Rus: Tier 3. Personally think that scarf isn't worthwhile, but shift gear is once again more of a threat in current meta. AV is also really solid right now.

SMB: Tier 4, scarf set is very bad, it doesn’t want to be locked on anything. AV and shift gear are decent but both have dropped in usage, don’t fit on many teams and people have learned to play against the shift gear set. Both sets also require a lot of support because they want the atk, the bulk and the speed. Wouldn’t be surprised to see a rise back to tier 3 soon but yeah I don’t think it’s the place for it rn.

Paraplegic: Tier 4, I think genesect is pretty damn mid. Scarf kinda just sucks and sg is something I just view as a fish thats usable vs certain opponents in tournament. Dont think this belongs in 3 with everything there.


Tapu Lele: Tier 3 →Tier 4
Actuarily: Tier 3. Blocking priority and setting psychic terrain is a big deal, and Lele can do both while also dealing out respectable damage. While psychic + fairy coverage isn’t the greatest, it can still chunk most Pokémon, which is all the teams it’s used on need.

Yoda2798: Tier 4. Definitely doesn’t fit on enough teams for Tier 3, facing competition from Tsareena and Indeedee-F. When it does fit it’s not that notable either, being largely an ability bot, so it doesn’t fit the definition for Tier 3.

Nido-Rus: Tier 3. Doesn't have the support factor of indeedee, but the sheer damage this can put out is definitely worthwhile and underutilized. Its speed tier is also more relevant now than it used to be.

SMB: Tier 3, psychic terrain is on a good spot atm and this mon actually does things not like the other setter we have on the tier.

Paraplegic: Tier 3, I think lele is the better psy terrain setter of the two due to actually doing damage and the fact that you can leverage all kinds of tricks in its movepool to keep your opp on their toes in a way that indeedee just can’t.


Indeedee-F: Tier 4 →Tier 3
Actuarily: Tier 4. While this also sets psychic terrain and has the added utility of follow me + heal pulse, it often doesn’t get to click those moves as it constantly wants to pivot to set terrain. While Lele can chunk an incoming opposing terrain setter, indeedee-f often has to just switch out or click an ignored follow me if the opponent chooses to switch out.

Yoda2798: Tier 4. It only fits on a limited number of teams, being basically a supporting actress for Necrozma or Hatterene, which is a small slice of the metagame, with Necrozma not even fully requiring it. Again, it’s not amazing or anything on those teams either, so it doesn’t fit the definition for Tier 3.

Nido-Rus: Tier 4. This is a tough one since I consider indeedee's viability to be related to the viability of the psyspam team it facilitates rather than its own functionality, like rain setters. Having said that, it doesn't contribute enough to the team even in these settings to be considered tier 3.

SMB: either tier 5 or 4, follow me and terrain setter bot.

Paraplegic: Tier 3, I said I thought lele was better and this holds true, but I don’t think the disparity is such that they’re a tier apart. Follow me pairing with amoong for double redirection is super good on some psyspam teams, especially ones utilizing trick room, and indeedee still does its job entirely adequately enough where I can’t in good conscious vote to keep it where we’re sending genesect.


lts.PNG

Changes:
:Metagross: Tier 3 -> Tier 2
:genesect: Tier 3 -> Tier 4
:Blastoise: Tier 4 -> Tier 5
:Cresselia: Tier 5 -> Tier 4
:Crobat: UR -> Tier 5
:Chansey: UR -> Tier 5
:Dracovish: UR -> Tier 5
:Ferrothorn: UR -> Tier 4
:Pheromosa: UR -> Tier 5
:Ribombee: Tier 5 -> UR
:Spectrier: Tier 5 -> Tier 4
:stakataka: UR -> Tier 4
:Sylveon: Tier 5 -> UR
:Whimsicott: Tier 5 -> Tier 4
 
If Zapdos-G had two rankings of 5, two of 4 and one 3, wouldn't it be moved up to 4 instead of remaining at 5? The median value is 4, and is equivalent to two "stay in 5" and three "move up a rank."
Zapdos-G had 3 votes for 5, not 2. In total, 6 people voted.

EDIT: I’m wrong and have been corrected, oops. Disregard this.
 
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Darkmalice

Level 3
is a Tiering Contributoris a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
So how do you always know which item to put on which pokemon? that's what I struggle with
A very beginner's guide to selecting items, created by me: There are two options:
1) check out the Smogon analyses for said Pokemon, and use said recommended set which includes items
2) a rough guideline for choice of items:
  • If said Pokemon is frequently attacking and does not care excessively about bulk, consider Life Orb e.g. Dragapult, Landorus-I
  • If said Pokemon is frequently attacking but does appreciate bulk, consider a type-boosting item e.g. Heatran and Charcoal (particularly if it has >1 move of the same type which Heatran usually does), Tapu Lele and Pixie Plate
  • If said Pokemon is always attacking and almost always uses the same move again, consider a Choice item e.g. Dracovish
  • If said Pokemon runs four attacking moves and appreciates bulk, consider Assault Vest e.g. Rillaboom, Scrafty
  • If Pokemon has a *4 weakness to Rock-type moves (Stealth Rock), consider Heavy Duty Boots e.g. Volcarona
  • For other cases, consider Sitrus Berry
As you get better with battling, you can make more informed choices about the appropriate item. For example, when to use Safety Googles.
 
A very beginner's guide to selecting items, created by me: There are two options:
1) check out the Smogon analyses for said Pokemon, and use said recommended set which includes items
2) a rough guideline for choice of items:
  • If said Pokemon is frequently attacking and does not care excessively about bulk, consider Life Orb e.g. Dragapult, Landorus-I
  • If said Pokemon is frequently attacking but does appreciate bulk, consider a type-boosting item e.g. Heatran and Charcoal (particularly if it has >1 move of the same type which Heatran usually does), Tapu Lele and Pixie Plate
  • If said Pokemon is always attacking and almost always uses the same move again, consider a Choice item e.g. Dracovish
  • If said Pokemon runs four attacking moves and appreciates bulk, consider Assault Vest e.g. Rillaboom, Scrafty
  • If Pokemon has a *4 weakness to Rock-type moves (Stealth Rock), consider Heavy Duty Boots e.g. Volcarona
  • For other cases, consider Sitrus Berry
As you get better with battling, you can make more informed choices about the appropriate item. For example, when to use Safety Googles.
Gotcha this makes a lot of sense! Thank you so much :)
 

FloristtheBudew

I'm just tired
I'd like to make a nomination for :gastrodon-east: UR -> Tier 5
It's nothing special but I've been enjoying using a lefties set with grassy terrain support. I think it's mostly just a patch up slot for teams that are weak to volcanion, heatran etc. It's able to slow down pressure from some of the offensives waters in the format.

I've been using an earth power, icy wind, recover and protect set as I don't think the water stab offers a lot compared to the other options. But holding icy wind as an option is nice for support team members as by itself, it doesn't make good use of it other then slow mons already in the format.
 

GenOne

DOU council member. GMT-8. PS!: GenOne
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:ferrothorn: Ferrothorn Tier 4 --> Tier 3

The Iron Defense set pops off in a lot of games and has seen good success in osdt, most notably on that rain semiroom build but also with non-rain semirooms it's perfectly fine too. Incineroar is barely a check because a boosted Ferrothorn can eat a Flare Blitz and OHKO in return with a body press. The best bet to beat ID ferro is to have multiple special fire attacks on your team (e.g. one of Heatran or Volcanion + fire coverage on something else like Naganadel for example), or to a lesser extent just strong neutral special attacks like EP lando-i. But if those go down ID Ferro is very potent as a wincon and against a matchup without enough special firepower ID Ferro really punishes it.

:mew: Mew Tier 2 --> Tier 1

I know this was nommed last month and voted down so sorry if this one isn't allowed, but I really do think Mew is at least as good/viable as Incineroar due to its sheer versatility and unpredictability from team preview. The definition for Tier 1 is "Pokemon that dominate a large portion of the metagame. They are either quite powerful or offer great team support, and can fit on almost any team. You can't really go wrong by using these Pokemon."

Mew can literally do anything from being a semiroom TR setter to a scarf+trick attacker, and of course the tried and true Tailwind sets with either good coverage moves or snarl+wisp still put in a lot of work too.

I'm too lazy to compile replays or usage stats for either of these noms unfortunately as that is just not my fortay, but figured I'd just toss these out there for fun since we're almost into the top cut portion of OSDT and these mons have stood out to me in watching ppl play games.
 

zoe

Harbinger
is an official Team Rateris a Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Site Content Manager Alumnus
DPL Champion
hi im back for more noms :heart:

:lurantis: UR -> 5
This thing can look super impressive into bulkier teams with Incineroar as their Fire-type and can be difficult to stop with other kinds of teams due to how quickly it can spiral out of control with how free Superpower can be in some situations. Grassy Glide is also pretty cool for sniping certain mons when they think they have the speed advantage (Urshifu-R and Landorus in particular come to mind) and actually hits hard after a Superpower. Knock Off is also cool in general to have, especially when it can hit as hard is Lurantis's can. Not too confident for higher than Tier 5 because it can be hard to build with and against more offensive structures it can flop, as well as Amoonguss being absurdly annoying for it. However, it has seen decent usage in OSDT so far and has had a few good showings, so I'd say it deserves Tier 5!

Replay from OSDT: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8doublesou-1621560012-wcb9uy692bllvh0mioibsydvsycajoipw

:blastoise: 5 -> 4
I like this mon rn! It's super bulky and its redirection can't be bypassed by Safety Goggles, which is a slight edge over Amoonguss, and is very reliable at absorbing multiple hits for its teammates. Fake Out is also good for obvious reasons and gives it opportunities to be useful outside of just clicking Follow Me. Pivoting along with its massive support movepool is also super helpful for the Pokemon (like DDance Zygarde) it supports. Honestly though it just doesn't feel like it's on the same level as the rest of the Tier 5's. A lot of them are either extremely niche or just not that effective, and im not sure toise fits either of those descriptions.

:pheromosa: 5 -> 4
Another case of I don't think this mon fits along with the same Tier 5 mons. It's not the easiest thing to fit in the world but it's really good at what it does, with that being outspeeding the entire metagame while being an extremely strong offensive threat. It also helps how it doesn't die to the most common priority attack in Grassy Glide (although it does take a lot still). It being able to pivot out with a really strong U-Turn also helps a ton, as it prevents it from being as much of a momentum sink in most situations. All of those qualities make it useful on both certain semiroom teams and Psyspam, as both the pivoting and immediately outspeeding anything without a Choice Scarf is extremely helpful for those teams, as well as Pheromosa being really hard to stop with priority out of the picture (for psyspam specifically).

:celesteela: 2 -> 3
This mon has fallen off significantly since a few months ago. It's still good don't get me wrong, but it doesn't particularly feel as good as the other Tier 2 mons. In most aspects it feels like a worse Steel-Type than Metagross due to its increased weakness to Kyurem-B and Nihilego, and can feel like it has worse matchups into Psyspam occasionally due to it being neutral to Meteor Beam and taking more that Metagross from Expanding Force, while at least Metagross can deter Expanding Force from being used, as well as being able to potentially remove Psychic Terrain with Steel Roller. Celesteela offensively can also be significantly harder to use due to its speed tier being awkward as well as it wanting all of Meteor Beam, Air Slash, Flamethrower, and Flash Cannon. With Meteor Beam being needed to give steela the push it needs to break through teams, and giving up on any of the other moves leaves it walled by something. Defensive sets have always been hard to fit as well due to how passively they can operate needing a slower paced team along with them. Overall, I feel like Celesteela is a full step below the rest of the Tier 2 Pokemon and should drop to 3 as a result.
 
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Teals

Banned deucer.
:Incineroar: 1 -> 2
Bold claim but I don't think this mon is T1 status. With rain and fat set up teams being used more often it is finding itself running into far more unfavorable matchups. Pheromosa gaining usage means it has another massive threat it has to stare down. You almost always naturally check incin by adding things to check real threats like kyube. It's still a T2 mon for sure because it is a consistent way to shut down dd kyube and other forms of offense, but it doesn't really hold a candle to mons like kyube and rilla.

:Dragapult: 3 -> 4
Maybe it's just me but this mon feels whack. If you need a special attacking dragon, you're almost always better off going with naga. I think the only set worth using is dd pult. However, you need to put a lot of care into building if you plan on using it. Many of the T4 mons feel more consistent compared to pult, the most comparable thing being cm stored power cress. Heatran, Necrozma and Zeraora are far more consistent and splashable on teams and better represent the T3 category. If cresselia continues to rise in usage as more people use the Fespy Cress team I can see this mon having more of a place on teams, but at this point in time I wouldn't rank it so high.
 

Meminger21

Lágrimas Ocultas
is a Tiering Contributor
:Mew: 2 -> 1 Mew fits on pretty much any archetype, has an incredible utility defensively and offensively and is one of the most reliable speed control options. Imo fake out and Scarf are pretty bad on Mew since it "loses" a slot by having Fake Out and it's not strong enough to have a Scarf, but it has a lot of sets like support with Snarl/wow, rock setter, utility with speed control (TW and TR) and it can check frail mons offensively with Earth Power, Ice Beam, Fire Blast and Psyshic and only really struggles against bulkier mons like p2 and incin.

Replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8doublesou-1550402213-nixew9f3470d809nvcfxamclk8d7boxpw (Snarl/Wow Mew, DPL)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8doublesou-1564826775 (Mew on TR and hazard stack Mew, DPL finals)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8doublesou-1369831508-c9pvxi7vvls9ihp0hc2ix1vap1zvppcpw (OSDT I, old but shows mew in rain)


:Tsareena: 4 -> 3 Tsareena is a staple on rain being used on the most common rain team, that also happens to be a sample team. It also works very well on tr, being able to stop Fake Out and threaten Rilla, Amoonguss and Urshifu-R while keeping the momentum with U-Turn. It has the "downside" of being a grass-type meaning that probably you won't use it in the same team with Amoonguss or Rilla, but it's definetly worth using it.

Replays: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8doublesou-583315 (Tsar on TR, last SCL)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8doublesou-642689 (Tsar on rain, BLT finals)


:Kingdra: :Pelipper: :Politoed: (rain) 4 -> 3 Not much to say here, just that rain is really good and deserves being in t3


:Excadrill: UR -> 4/5 Sand has showed that it is a pretty decent archetype, I don't think I'm the right person to say it tho since I never used it, but no one had nommed it yet.

Replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8doublesou-1549745013 (ssnl finals)
 
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